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Listen, I feel like this is maybe like a little bit of a meeting of the Katherine Miller fan club, if I’m honest.
It really is.
Glad to be here, talking about vibe shifts.
I really hate the term “vibe.” Anyway.
Oh, stop it.
Ooh, I love the vibes.
It’s too early in the show to go Andy Rooney. [MUSIC PLAYING]
From “New York Times Opinion,” I’m Carlos Lozada.
I’m Michelle Cottle.
And I’m Lydia Polgreen.
And this is “Matter of Opinion,” where thoughts are allowed.
[SNORTING]:
Stop it. Stop. Can’t help yourself.
I’ll never stop it. [MUSIC PLAYING]
So, Ross is away this week, but Katherine Miller is joining us in his place. Katherine is a —
Woo!
Yay, Katherine.
Thanks for having me.
Katherine is a writer and editor here at Times Opinion, covering politics and our political system writ large. I have to say, what I love about Katherine’s writing is that she’s great at capturing sort of shifting moods in our political life. And I think that will be especially useful today. So, welcome to Katherine.
Oh, that’s nice. Thank you.
All right, so, barring health troubles or illegal developments or acts of God or second thoughts, it looks like we basically have our two general election presidential candidates.
[SNORING]:
For the history buffs out there, first time since 1892 that we have two presidents, a former and a current, facing off for the presidency. Can anyone name them? Quick.
Was it Grover Cleveland?
Yes, and?
I forget who the other guy was.
Benjamin Harrison.
Oh, that’s right!
Oh.
Yes, which I just learned this weekend.
: Teacher’s pet. Always knows the answer.
But he’s the teacher.
Well, when you pose the question, you better know the answer. We have this choice before us, but it turns out there are a lot of people who are unhappy with this choice. So today, we’re going to talk about what happens to that chunk of the American electorate that for whatever disparate reasons, just can’t stand either Trump or Biden. Where do they go? What do they do?
Do they vote for Biden, vote for Trump, a third party, come home to their party, or stay home and not vote at all? That is what we are going to explore today. Let’s figure out who these voters are, how they might affect this election, and the impact they might have on American politics, even beyond that. Sound like a plan?
Let’s do it.
Yay.
All right, giddy up.
All right.
Let’s start with that chunk of voters who opted for Nikki Haley in the Republican primary. Katherine, you spent a lot of time covering Haley and her people. Who is the Haley voter?
The Haley voter is probably somebody who voted for Mitt Romney in 2012 and maybe they voted for Trump in 2016, or maybe they didn’t vote for anybody, and then they actually voted for Biden. A lot has happened in the last decade, right?
Turns out.
Yeah. And people have responded.
To the changes.
To the changes, yeah. That kind of voter tends to be more affluent, tends to be more suburban, tends to think Biden won the 2020 election, which is a big dividing line in polling. I saw that kind of divide in South Carolina. I went there twice to go to Haley events in February. I talked to some Haley voters at those events.
And obviously, the people who go to events are pretty self-selecting. They are going to be people who like the candidate, generally speaking. You know, the people I talked to mostly were like, they had voted for Nikki Haley twice as governor. I talked to a man who was wearing a hospital scrubs and USC Gamecocks gear, and he had voted for Biden in 2020 and felt like if it came down to Trump and Biden, he would vote for Biden again, but he really actually wanted to vote for a Republican. He would have been thrilled with Haley.
Just having read your coverage and followed this a bit, they strike me as very kind of normie, sort of normie, suburban, probably like mostly voted for moderate Republicans and have found themselves uncomfortably voting for Democrats, but in some ways, kind of under duress.
I mean, the sort of prototype for this for me is my grandmother, who became somewhat less conservative over the course of her life, and then ultimately, when the 2016 election came along, was like, I can’t. She didn’t vote for Hillary, but she couldn’t vote for Trump. And I don’t know. There’s something just sort of like — I don’t know — Presbyterian about her that — [LAUGHS]
I mean, that’s something Pew looks at, actual regular church attending with mainline Protestants really tend not to Trump.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, as opposed to evangelicals, who have really kind of gone all in for — white evangelicals have gone all in for Trump.
I mean, Nikki voters tended to be more educated, which is increasingly the big dividing line in American politics if you have a college degree or not. And those who fall on the other side of the line are way in for Trump.
I think it’s useful to think about what Nikki Haley is now saying to her voters. When she dropped out, she gave this weird non-endorsement. She said it is now up to Donald Trump to earn the votes of those in her party and beyond it who did not support him, and I hope he does that. At its best, politics is about bringing people into your cause, not turning them away. So the headline was like, she declines to endorse Trump, but it sounded like she was leaving herself a clear opening to endorse him later on.
OK, so the one thing — a real source of frustration to me personally is, so much of the discourse around Haley was she wants to be VP. We can’t support her because she might drop out and endorse Trump. Basically, everybody else has endorsed Trump, except for Nikki Haley. She could still do it. And I completely agree that that was set up in such a way where she’s allowing herself to do that if she wants. But we are months past when she was supposed to do this. And she hasn’t.
Yeah, I also wonder to what extent she’s actually channeling something, that the point of view that she represents is one that, in the breach, if push comes to shove, that her politics is that she will vote for Trump and perhaps even endorse Trump over voting for Biden, which is, it’s a tell that there are all these issues of principle that matter, but that ultimately, she is a Republican, and as a Republican, will support the Republican nominee for president.
And I sort of wonder about these Haley supporters. Are they really truly, in their heart of hearts, Republicans who are going to come back to the fold, or are they going to sit this one out? Or are they going to wander across the aisle and vote for Biden? I think many of them did vote for Biden in 2020. And I think a big unanswered question is, will they do that again or choose some other path?
Yeah, and I mean, that’s clear in that it’s one poll, but in this New York Times Siena poll this month, 64 percent of people who said they would vote for Nikki Haley in a Republican primary said they voted for Biden in 2020, which is very high.
I mean, if you talk to at the events, like in New Hampshire, a ton of the people at the Haley events had voted for Biden. These are not core Republican voters. The Republican base and hardcore Republicans, even beyond Trump’s core loyalists, are going to come home and vote for the party.
For sure.
We just watched Mitch McConnell, who got the shit kicked out of him by Trump for years and blamed Trump for January 6, just come out and endorse him — ‘cause that’s what they do.
Yeah, but one thing that is real about this is 64 percent of these people voted for Biden in 2020, they say. And you know what? Biden won the election last time. Haley’s voters represent 3 percent of all registered voters. It’s not a huge group of people, but the margins on these things are so small now that people who kind of stopped voting Republican, but in their heart of hearts, are like a little bit Republican, but voted for Biden, if they vote for Biden again, I mean, that actually is a big deal in some places.
And when you’re talking about an election that’s split this closely, then that’s why the Democrats are sweating the third party candidates. They got a war room set up for dealing with these folks. They are not playing because a tiny shift in the vote in, say, Michigan or one of the swing states that matter can throw this, whatever team you usually vote for or whether you decide to just stay home.
Actually, let’s take a moment to look at that other side here for a second. For the Democrats, we might be seeing sort of an inverse situation in which Biden is maybe too moderate a candidate. And that’s a problem for the more progressive wing of the party. In some state primaries, some progressives chose to vote uncommitted, rather than vote for Biden. Can someone walk us through who this group is and what their beef is with Joe Biden?
Yeah, I’m happy to give that a try. I mean, look, I think that right now, what is front and center with the sort of, quote unquote, “uncommitted vote” is definitely Israel and Gaza. The way that the Biden administration and that Biden personally has handled the crisis there, I think has alienated a significant number of certainly young voters, young progressive voters.
But it’s been striking to me how the problem is not limited to young progressive voters, and it’s certainly not limited to Arab-American voters who helped push for — basically, Biden’s margin of victory in 2020 in Michigan was a little more than 100,000 votes. And the uncommitted vote in the primary was basically 100,000 votes, which is a little bit scary. So, that’s one factor.
But I think a much bigger and scarier factor is something that was highlighted in a fascinating piece that was in “The Times,” I think a couple of months ago, which was about older Black religious leaders, pastors, saying, look, we’re really, really concerned and upset about Gaza. So, these are not young fire breathing progressives. These are the center of the historic Black church there, people of enormous moral authority, tremendous amount of influence. So, I think to me the emergence of that group is a big part of the problem.
And then you have another factor, which is these kind of people who think of themselves as being broadly progressive and on the left, but have gone kind of cuckoo on issues of vaccines and COVID restrictions and things like that. And so, spending time as I do in certain kind of crunchy, progressive redoubts like Great Barrington, Massachusetts, and Provincetown, and so on, you do see these RFK, Jr. bumper stickers and hats and things like that. And partly maybe that’s just a Massachusetts bias, but I think that there are a bunch of different parts of them. And some of them are quite fringy, like the anti-vax and the kind of hard left opponents of the policy on Palestine. But some of them are actually much more mainstream.
I guess one thing I’m wondering about is, are the sort of uncommitted Biden skeptics on the left more or less dogmatic than the Haley voter on the Republican side, right? I kind of imagine that Haley voters will — not all, but many will make their way back to Trump, as I think Haley will as well. But on the Biden side, will the anti-Bidens actually be more likely to sit out or to protest vote, in a way?
I guess it depends how well the Democrats do in motivating them. I mean, in general, a lot of these folks who are uncommitted are younger voters or voters of color, which tend to be less likely to turn out or harder to turn out anyway. I mean, these are the folks who don’t turn out in midterms, usually. They have to have a reason to turn out, as opposed to just kind of automatic.
So, one question is, can Democrats rally them around, say, the abortion issue, which has been a extremely mobilizing for folks. And one of the things that looking at young voters, young voters tend to turn out more because they have something they care about as an issue. They do not vote for parties. They barely vote for candidates because candidates are, by definition, complicated and flawed.
But something like abortion is something that they can get very motivated about, whereas some of the Nikkey voters, especially in places like New Hampshire, are just people who are registering a protest vote. And they are just unhappy that they are once again faced with these two old coots. You’re not really supposed to have to do this. Once you have dispatched a candidate like this, you’re not really supposed to have to face it again right in the next election. So, they’re unhappy about it.
So much of this just depends on factors that are out of control. Will Gaza be a big factor? I mean, it depends. Is there going to be a durable ceasefire in the next couple of months? And by the time the election rolls around, will that have been largely defanged as an issue? And similarly, on abortion, if there’s a Supreme Court decision on mifepristone that goes against the pro-choice movement, that will be a huge galvanizing force.
So, just broadly speaking, I think that the negative polarization that Trump seems to attract is the biggest driver of people voting for Biden at this stage. So, that could only be a good thing.
One of the things that I’m very interested to see is how people respond once Trump is back in the spotlight a lot. We have had some blessed years where he has been mostly confined to Truth Social and his rallies or whatever. And he has not been in America’s face to the same degree that he was. And I think memory has softened just how atrocious he can be. And so, once this race heats up, if we see a lot of him on TV, and I doubt they’ll have any debates, but there will be other opportunities, the convention, I’ll be interested to see how that affects people.
Well, remember there will also be ads. I think the Biden superPAC has reserved like $250 million in advertising. That will start running later in the summer.
Oh, all the swing state voters are going to be so delighted about that.
Well, one thing that — I mean, negative advertising really — and I’m sure some of that advertising will be like, you’re welcome, America, the infrastructure bill.
You’re welcome!
But Nikki Haley was actually hurt in New Hampshire by advertising about Social Security. And it has been a long time since there have been negative ads run about Trump.
Oh, yeah, voters complain about negative ads all the time. Yeah, but they’re run because they work.
The entire Biden presidency has been a negative ad about Donald Trump. I mean —
But you think that, but like honestly, you got to flash those ads up.
No, but I mean, think about — I was just reading Frank Foer’s book about Biden. And when they came up with the notion of ultra MAGA as the way to attack Republicans in 2022, I mean, the raison d’etre of Biden’s presidency and re-election has been about, I’m here, standing in the breach, defending you from these forces. Even during the Biden presidency, there’s sort of an ever present feeling to Donald Trump.
OK, when we come back from the break, I want to talk about the people who say they won’t vote for Trump or for Biden, and what all those non-committed voters could mean for this election. We’ll be right back.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
So, we’ve talked about the anti-Trump forces on the right, the anti-Biden forces on the left, but there’s also the anti-everyone’s, the so-called double haters, the people who really dislike both their choices and say, they don’t want to vote for either candidate. We had double haters in 2020, and they tended to ultimately break for Biden. But they were only about 5 percent of the electorate then, and now it’s more like 19 percent of people who say they dislike Trump and dislike Biden. So, what do you make of these, quote unquote, “double hater voters“?
Hate is a strong word.
Yes.
Dislike, let’s say.
What’s the other word they use? No-no voters? Can we go with that one instead?
Double no’s? What I don’t like about the term is because hate and hater implies kind of an irrational, unthinking position, and also one that can be dismissed. Oh, he’s just a hater. She’s just a hater.
Haters gonna hate.
Like, yeah, it’s just, you can’t do anything about it because haters gonna hate.
Live your life, ignore the haters.
Yeah, yeah, and I think there are perhaps entirely rational reasons to have misgivings about both of these candidates. I have misgivings about both candidates. And my misgivings about one exceed my misgivings about the other.
But Nikki Haley is a double hater. And in January, she told Dana Bash, she told CNN that she finds them equally bad. She’s like, if either one of them was good, I wouldn’t be running. They are equally bad. Lisa Murkowski says she can’t vote for either one. Lisa Murkowski is a double hater, right? This is not just some vibe out in the world.
Although, look, Lisa Murkowski and Nikki Haley are conservatives, so they’re not going to vote for a Democrat. It’s not like they are the swing voter on the street. So, I mean, they’re not going to vote for Trump because he’s a threat to democracy. But the fact that they both say they’re not going to vote for the Democrat doesn’t surprise me.
Evan Osnos recently wrote a piece for the New Yorker about Biden. And in that piece, Biden’s campaign chair, Jennifer O’Malley Dillon, basically says that it’s possible favorability has decoupled from the choices that people make about candidates. That seems somewhat accurate to the situation that we’re in, where people make choices and they’re not pleased with either of their options. And they’re —
But they still make them.
But they still make them, is then —
Which is what grown-ups do, incidentally, when it comes to voting.
You don’t have to vote.
You don’t need to —
You don’t have to vote.
No, no, you don’t need to love a candidate. You vote for the candidate even if you don’t love them.
But this is where I think things get dicey and dangerous for Biden, right? I think that the constituencies that he’s going to need in order to get over the top this time around, the risk is not that they’re going to vote for Trump. The risk is that they’re not going to show up.
They stay home.
I also broadly think one of the problems for Biden that’s not — aspects of this are maybe his fault, but some of it isn’t — is people’s expectation was that things would calm down while he was president. They don’t necessarily feel that way, in part because there’s two bad conflicts taking place in the world.
There’s also, I mean, Biden has some problems specific to younger groups of people who might be trying to buy a car or a house and have rate issues that he doesn’t totally have control over. And there’s some of these things that are like aspects of chaos or frustration that are hard to break up and solve.
This is what happens when you’re president. It’s your fault what’s going on in the world. That’s the responsibility you take as president. And last time around, he didn’t have a record, and this time around, he does. And no matter what he has done in this, that, or the other category, he’s not going to meet expectations, and he can’t control things like the war in Gaza or the war in Ukraine. And that does not redound to his benefit.
Yeah, I mean, the flip of this is like, for instance, if the Supreme Court takes the regulations on mailing abortion drugs back to the way they were in the 2000s, that would have a very restrictive quality on abortion. It’s like the IVF ruling recently. Some of these things definitely link back to choices that Republicans made about nominations and the Supreme Court ultimately.
Somebody who isn’t particularly in politics said to me before the midterms that they felt like January 6 and the Dobbs ruling were really linked in their minds because they felt like to average people, they were like, what won’t the Republicans do? They’re storming the Capitol. They’re overturning Roe v. Wade. What’s going to happen next? I believe anything could happen now.
And that linkage ended up being quite relevant, I think, to the 2022 midterm results. And I don’t think you can really discount that in terms of other factors that people don’t have control over that really are to the detriment of Republican prospects in an election.
I was talking to Eugene Daniels of Politico on Friday. And he said basically that Dobbs and democracy is the message. That’s the Biden message. What’s interesting about that is that they’re both reactions. They’re both like protective, defensive positions versus what —
They’re conservatives now, like Nikki Haley voters.
Yeah. [LAUGHS]
No, seriously. When I was talking to people about the California Senate primary, where Adam Schiff just trounced in the jungle primary they have, all against all — doesn’t matter your party. But the vice chair of the Democratic Party in California was saying that progressive has come to mean something along the lines of protecting what values and progress that we have made. It’s —
I don’t know if the progressives will feel that way.
— worrying about having stuff rolled back and losing your democracy. So, yeah, it really has, with the specter of Trump on the ballot, it is kind of an “all hands on deck” to just not have everything destroyed that they hold dear.
So, OK, this is like — talk about a super bummer episode. The —
Sweet.
It’s not a good time. I don’t know — sorry — what to tell you. I mean —
No, but let me propose something. One thing I find interesting about, say, the double haters is that if there’s anything that people can agree on about American politics today is that we’re super polarized, and our political divides kind of overpower all our other identities — religion, culture, economics, class.
Yet, what I find interesting about the double haters is that in a sense, they are resisting these polls. At least, they aren’t defined by them. It’s not like they’re in the mushy middle. They have strong views. And they even have party identities. This may be starry-eyed of me, but is there an independent streak in the existence of these kind of voters that I am wrong to find vaguely hopeful?
I don’t think so. I mean, I think that there is a —
I have an allergy to the term “common sense” because common to whom? You know, like — [LAUGHS]
You got a problem with Thomas Paine?
Who’s included in the common? But I do think that there is this kind of broad American bias towards what feels normal and what doesn’t feel extreme. And at the moment, the Democratic Party under Joe Biden seems to be sort of channeling something closer to what that might be for the middle of our political spectrum. I think that that’s where the least weird ideas are coming from. So, yeah, I don’t know. I mean, I think there is a craving for this, but we don’t have a political system that seems to be able to deliver it.
So, Carlos, my question is, are you talking about the independent streak in the people who are running or the people who are voting?
I mean voters who don’t feel compelled to align.
OK, that’s what I want to take apart.
No, go for it.
If you look back — and we’re talking decades because I’ve been doing this for too long. The idea that there is this great, thoughtful, independent swing voter is largely bunk. There are a huge chunk of people who don’t like to affiliate with the parties because they have this idea that it makes them seem less beholden to or less kind of knee-jerk voting. But in general, most of those voters lean strongly one way and go that way. There is a small chunk of people in the middle who really do swing.
Overwhelmingly, those people are not more thoughtful. They are less informed. If you talk to the folks who study these voters, overwhelmingly through the years, these folks just don’t really pay attention to politics. And they say things like, I don’t vote for the party. I vote for the person. And they do this in presidential elections, particularly, because we have this weird relationship with the president. It’s all about character. It’s all about the individual.
Now, I think with Trump, you really do have a character who has so trashed the system and has so destroyed norms that I think it’s completely different. So, that’s a long way of saying, usually, it’s complete garbage. With a character like Trump, it makes a little bit of sense this time around. So, there you go. That’s my skunk at the garden party.
Well, I mean, I do think unhappiness is unpredictable. It’s hard to know what the electorate will be this year because of different displeasures people have with the way things are. But I mean, if you talk to people who are unhappy with Biden’s policy on Israel, often, not always, but often, it is like pretty well thought out.
Yeah, we’re not talking about people who are mad about a particular policy. We’re talking about the people who are usually —
But the people who are mad right now are —
— independent voters. And I will be interested to see. These folks aren’t going to swing and vote for Trump. They’re not swing voters. They’re just going to stay home.
Right. Well, but that’s — you know.
But that’s different, though. That’s not the people who are voting for them because of their personality. They may do a protest vote and stay home. But that’s not the same thing as swinging between the voters or being independents or undecided.
Yeah, sure, I agree.
Well, doubleheaders aren’t swing voters. We shouldn’t equate those things.
Yeah, well, the other thing I was just going to say is that the Haley thing was interesting to me to go to her events in South Carolina, and a little bit of this in Iowa as well. If you talk to anti-Trump, never-Trump people who are in media or politics, they often have extremely conflicted feelings about everything because a lot of their life, it was built around being conservative. And now that’s been complicated by these things. And some of them felt like, well, Haley hasn’t been critical enough of Trump, and what would it mean for me to support somebody who might not win?
And then I was at these events in South Carolina where it was just pretty clear that people were just like, yeah, I like her. I really don’t like Trump. I want a choice. It was uncomplicated. It was straightforward. The events were pretty cheerful and upbeat, even though everybody knew the way this was going to go, which was, she’s going to lose. It was kind of this interesting side by side of people just being pretty straightforward and commonsensical, if you will.
I’ll allow it.
Yeah, I know. Just like, yeah. If you live in DC or New York, and you are or were consider yourself conservative, and you don’t like Trump, you do know people who also don’t like Trump. But if you live in Columbia, South Carolina, how often do you get a positive way to express that you don’t like Trump? It doesn’t come around all that often.
I think one thing that — and we talked about in this conversation already — these are very well-known quantities, right? Like, we know a lot about Joe Biden, and we know a lot about Donald Trump. They are two old coots, as we’ve been saying. And think about when you get excited or when people get excited about elections. It’s when there’s somebody who’s representing something different and new. And the successful versions of this tell a story that builds a new coalition. Ronald Reagan built a new coalition.
Barack Obama.
Barack Obama, I mean, huge. And —
People got excited about Bill Clinton.
People got excited about Bill Clinton. He built a new coalition. And I think that this is not the moment that we’re living in right now. We don’t have any candidate who is coming to the fore and saying, here’s how I’m going to build a new coalition.
Actually, I don’t think that Trump has been able to build a new coalition in the same way that those other presidents have because he never won the popular vote. So he has built a coalition, but it’s not a winning national coalition. He was able to win via the electoral college, but it’s nowhere near the kind of achievement that those other presidents have had. And so, I think that there is a sense in which our politics feel so depressing right now because we don’t have a new story.
Not to be nasty, but we are at a moment where people who do pay attention to politics, like reporters and the chattering class, are tired of feeling like the older generation has clogged up the pipes for a really long time. This goes well beyond the presidential race. People were super frustrated that Dianne Feinstein — God rest her soul — stayed in that job long past the point where she should have as senator. They were also frustrated that Nancy Pelosi, Steny Hoyer, clogged up the top of the House Democratic leadership for decades, to where younger generation members were leaving.
Now, they have stepped aside, so these things are starting to move. But you are at this point where it’s not just the fact that we can’t get someone under the age of 1,000 to run for president and be taken seriously. It’s kind of extending to the broader political gerontocracy that people are tired of.
With Lydia’s call for a new coalition and Michelle’s out with the old vibe here, I think that maybe there’s something we can hang our hats on.
Hope springs eternal in politics as in life.
Eternal disappointment. All right, let’s leave it there. Katherine Miller, thank you for joining us.
Thank you, Katherine
Thank you, Katherine.
Thanks for having me.
When we come back, we will get hot and cold.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
All right, folks, it is time for Hot, Cold. Who’s got one this week?
I do. I am extremely cold on the tyranny of bland mid-century modern furniture.
Mm, yes.
And careful listeners to this podcast have grown weary of hearing about the saga of me moving to a new apartment.
Never. More. I crave more.
But the thing that happens after you move is that sometimes you need to get new furniture. And so lately, I have been on a quest to find a new couch. And you guys, this look, I think, is something that we all kind of got excited about. It came back in the “Mad Men” era, the TV show “Mad Men.” Beautiful sofas and chairs and colors, and blah, blah, blah, clean lines, clean lines.
I am sick of it. I’m just sick of it. I’ve been to every big box furniture store. I’ve been to boutiques. I’ve gone all over. And essentially, we’re living in this weird, kind of interior design monoculture where everything looks like a sort of vaguely forced, cheerful tech office or like an upscale pediatrics —
Oh, my.
— office.
Oh, my God. You have nailed it.
And it’s just like — I don’t know — I crave something weird.
What? You want Rococo?
I don’t know! Like, let’s have art deco come back.
Mm, yes.
I don’t know. I’m open. But I’m just saying that I feel as if the mass visual aesthetic has gotten me down. And I’m looking for a comfortable, not too expensive, unusual couch that doesn’t look like the same couch that every single person that I see on Instagram has. So, cold on mid-century modern, cold on sameness.
You want something plush and weird. I like it.
Looking for couch advice. Listeners, if you have advice for me —
Send links.
— please send links.
Send links to Lydia. She’s in search.
All right. Well, with that attack on mid-century modern, we’ll wrap it up. See you all next week.
Thanks, guys.
Bye, guys!
Bye. [MUSIC PLAYING]
Thanks for joining us this week. Be sure to give us a follow on your favorite podcast app. And if you can, leave us a nice review to tell other people why they should be listening as well. And let us know what big question we should think about next by emailing us at matterofopinion@nytimes.com, or leave us a voicemail by calling 212 — 556-7740.
“Matter of Opinion” is produced by Phoebe Lett, Sophia Alvarez Boyd, and Derek Arthur. It’s edited by Jordana Hochman. Our fact-check team is Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker, and Michelle Harris. Original music by Isaac Jones, Efim Shapiro, Carole Sabouraud, Sonia Herrero, and Pat McCusker. Mixing by Carole Sabouraud. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta and Kristina Samulewski. Our executive producer is Annie-Rose Strasser.
